December 14, 2007, 10:11 am Ads About Kids’ Mental Health Problems Draw Fire Posted by Shirley S. Wang New York University’s Child Study Center wanted a provocative new campaign to raise awareness about childhood mental health disorders. Well, it got one, and now NYU’s learning that there’s a fine line between attention-grabbing and offensive. The center’s new ad campaign, which began last week, uses images of ransom notes (click on the image to see a larger version) to drive home the message that 12 million children are being held hostage by mental health problems, such as depression and autism. But almost immediately, the Autistic Self Advocacy Network, an advocacy group for people with autism-spectrum disorders, took offense to the ads, calling them stigmatizing and inaccurate. The autism note, for instance, implies that children with autism have no social skills and are doomed to social isolation, Ari Ne’eman, ASAN president, tels the Health Blog. “It’s not only not true, it’s a slap in the face to many people with disability,” he says. On Tuesday, the group sent the NYU center and the campaign’s ad agency, BBDO New York, a letter of complaint signed by 13 local and national advocacy organizations. More groups came forward yesterday to join in the effort after hearing about it, Ne’eman said. “Obviously we want to raise awareness and ensure that more children with disabilities do have the opportunity to be diagnosed and receive the appropriate services and support,” says Ne’eman. “This campaign will have the opposite effect.” The backlash from patient groups was surprising and unexpected, says Harold Koplewicz, director of the NYU’s Child Study Center. “We did examine that issue very carefully” after getting complaints, he says, consulting with colleagues and psychiatric organizations. However, he is pleased with the attention generated by the ads so far. Traffic on the center’s Web site to the disorders featured in the ad campaign have nearly doubled in the last 10 days, he says. NYU has no plans to stop the campaign. The ransom note ads, created free by BBDO, will be plastered on telephone kiosks, construction site walls and billboards in New York City for at least the next month, as well as in several magazines with regional reach. Each ransom note contains a link to the NYU Child Study Center Web site at the bottom, which contains information about the problems and treatment resources available across the country. Health Blog Question of the Day: Are NYU’s ads on point or over the line? Permalink | Trackback URL: http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2007/12/14/ads-about-kids-mental-health-problems-draw-fire/trackback/ Save & Share: Share on Facebook | Del.icio.us | Digg this | Email This | Print Read more: Mental Health, Advertising Comments Report offensive comments to healthblog@wsj.com NYU’s ads are right on the point, & the shame is that there’s hardly anything being done about it. I take issue with ASAN president Ari Ne’eman’s comments. An organization like that should strive to not only raise awarenes but push for answers. The parents of kids affected by autism don’t want this problem swept under the rug. We want answers. Which gov’t official is going to champion this cause? Where are the investigations? What did the FDA know & when did they know it? What is the EPA hiding? Hopefully NYU’s ads with spark a drive to uncover the truth about how this epidemic got started in the first place. It equates to neurological genocide. Comment by anon - December 14, 2007 at 11:34 am Thanks for creating a stir. When society realizes these kids have REAL illnesses that require professional intervention maybe people won’t be so insensitive as to summarily dismiss these kids as brats or manipulators. My children have a variety of diagnoses. One of them has been suicidal. When I ask teachers/coaches to go easy on the teasing/be sensitive because of depression they think I’m being over-protective. Do they need the details? One of my kids has ADHD inattentive type. I get disapproval from people who know she’s medicated because THEY don’t think she has ADHD (they don’t see unusual hyperactivity). I wonder what they think the psychiatrist does? Unfortunately, when it comes to mental illness, many people see only some behavioural problems which they attribute to inadequate parenting. We live alongside many good, educated people who are ignorant about many aspects of mental health. Caring for a child is complex: the psychiatrist teases out issues related to normal child development, issues of drug interactions, changes in response to a drug over time, etc. It would help if friends and family would leave the details of diagnoses and treatment to the professionals and just provided emotional support for these kids. Aside: Maybe we will eventually gain real parity of coverage from our insurance company - i.e. more reasonable “allowable usual/customary charges.” Last time I looked, our $200/45 min psychiatrist visit was not fully allowed by Blue Cross. They claim this SPECIALIST should only be paid $104/45 min. That’s less than $35 for 15 minutes. When was the last time you paid $35 to see a Specialist for 15 minutes? We NEED to educate the public about our childrens’ real medical needs. Thanks for highlighting our children’s issues. Comment by This could one day be you. - December 14, 2007 at 2:05 pm The Child Study Center’s campaign has good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with those. When a school hears that children with ADHD or any other disability or ‘detriments to themselves and those around them’, what are they going to think about inclusion and providing the right services to these kids? They’ll think these children are dangerous. Like ASAN says, these ads are a slap in the face to people with disabilities and it needs to be withdrawn Comment by Disability Advocate - December 14, 2007 at 2:33 pm No one is a detriment to themselves. “Awareness” is tired. We’ve been doing “awareness” for over a decade. Over 20 years, 30 years on some of these conditions. So where’s the information? I don’t see any. As for not meaning to create more stigma…”detriment to others” is sure stigmatizing. “I didn’t think” is all Dr Kolpewicz needed to say. Followed by “I’m sorry my ego got in the way of my brain”. Comment by Not a Hostage, Just an Autistic - December 14, 2007 at 4:46 pm The ads are deceptive and offensive. They should be removed. Dealing in stereotypes is no way to educate. Comment by Jane Meyerding (diagnosed autistic) - December 14, 2007 at 4:49 pm Any attention this disorder receives is overdue and much deserved. These ads are brilliant. Shame on the so-called “advocacy” groups who purport to speak on behalf of the masses - they only care about their own relevance. Comment by Autism Mom in PA - December 14, 2007 at 4:53 pm As a parent of a son diagnosed to be on the autism spectrum, I have to say I hope my son never reads these ads. To imply that he is held captive or that those parts of him that are more reflective of autism are criminal would be incredibly wounding to his very sensitive soul. I understand raising awareness is important, but this kind of shock value ad only serves to further muddy the waters when it comes to these disorders. My son is not mentally ill - he has serious challenges and issues along with incredible gifts and a unique outlook on life. I would hate for him to ever think he had somehow been kidnapped and therefore because he has autism, and it is as of now not entirely curable, that he was lost forever or could never be social or independent. Comment by In full possession of my Autistic and yet beloved and - December 14, 2007 at 4:55 pm Let’s get to the point: No one is against increasing awareness, but these ads use violent imagery - kidnapping, holding for ransom, threatening death - in order to do so. They also suggest that a kid who has these conditions is doomed to a horrible life. We aren’t denying the challenges. We want kids to get help. But think about it - what parent is going to bring her child in for diagnosis if she’s convinced that a diagnosis is synonymous with a terrible life? Why do we need to scare the daylights out of parents who are already worried about their child’s future? These ads are unnecessary. These ads do nothing to increase awareness about treatments, options, medications, new resources, & new therapies. These ads do nothing to let parents know they can get help and that there is hope. The only thing these ads do is push violent and shameful images on families that are already struggling. We don’t need to scare people, make people feel bad, or put parents into a panic in order to raise awarenss. Research has shown that one of the biggest factors in a disabled or sick child getting treatment is the parent’s connection to that child. When parents feel connected to their children, they help them and advocate for them, no matter who the child is or what he is suffering from. The fastest way to make a parent feel disconnected from her child is to suggest her “real” child has been stolen and she is now stuck with a shameful, doommed replacement. These ads are having the reverse effect - they are making parents feel horrible about their kids, which research has shown will likely decrease the help children will actually get. If NYU used “nice” ads in the past that didn’t work, many factors could be the reason - where they placed the ads, for example. Let’s get the information out there - but not through violent images, shame, and fear. Honestly, we can do better than this as a society. Zosia Zaks Comment by Zosia Zaks - December 14, 2007 at 5:06 pm The problem I have with the Autism ad is that it really generlizes a disorder that has a huge spectrum of severity. Lumping all autism patients together is downright dangerous, as many, if not most, of these children can be helped. I don’t understand why the Autism Ad is so negative–”..he will not be able to care for himself or interact socially as long as he lives. This is only the beginning.” While the ADHD ad reads “Ignore this and your kid will pay.” Isn’t THAT the message you really want to get out about all of these illnesses (bulimia, etc.) Why is ADHD the only ad that provides a hint on taking action and getting help??? My nephew is on the hopeful side of the autism scale. His life is NOT doomed–with the right services, he will be able to care for himself and interact socially. His parents are fighting very hard for this. An ad like this can only discourage their efforts. I suggest a rewrite. Keep the same theme, just provide an action item like the ADHD ad. It’s not hard, really. Comment by Patty - December 14, 2007 at 5:32 pm Do parents who want awareness really want stigmatizing misinformation to be spread as a way of getting attention? I had the ASAN campaign presented to a group who was unfamiliar with many of the disorders targeted, and some people assumed that the “information” in the ads was fact. That’s a dangerous way to draw attention if what one really one wants is services, treatment, and even respect for children (and adults) with disabilities. Furthermore, the NYU campaign makes the leap to equate all of the disorders with suicide. There are other disorders more likely to result in suicide or suicide attempts, yet the NYU campaign does not target them, presumably because those disorders are not the clinic’s specialty. At least some suicidal ideation comes from being treated negatively by people and society in general: The rhetoric in the ads is hardly likely to result in fewer suicide attempts, especially if a person with one of the targeted disorders reads the ads and takes them literally. Comment by Paula - December 14, 2007 at 6:00 pm My own thoughts on this ad campaign, which I think is over the top and is headed by one of the co-author’s of the infamous Paxil study 329, can be found here at www.furiousseasons.com. I’m glad the WSJ and others are covering this controversy. Comment by Philip Dawdy - December 14, 2007 at 7:16 pm I feel for every kid targeted with these ads. I hear the children on the play grounds now when they learn of a child labled with one of these disorders. the tunting these ads will bring “Your a hostage, You better get help” Great job NYU. What a way to stir up business! I hope my son and daughter don’t kill themselves because they now feel they are doomed to a life of ridicule and shame. Comment by Huh? Are you serious or just plain ignorant? - December 14, 2007 at 7:28 pm I hear so many people saying ‘we need to raise awareness’. My question is always ‘what kind of awareness?’ With the kind of awareness of autism spectrum conditions, I’m glad I wasn’t diagnosed as autistic until 15. The awareness my teachers had of ADHD hurt me a lot anyway. (As far as they were concerned, ADHD was ‘a behavior problem cured by Ritalin’ and I had a behavior problem so they wanted me to get Ritalin. When even kids who actually have ADHD are not cured by any medication - they may be helped but they’re still different). Comment by Ettina - December 14, 2007 at 7:37 pm Having autism does not hurt. It is not a bad thing. It is who I am. Having to live in a world full of people who hate autistics, who want them eradicated, THAT is what hurts. Not to mention parents who are ashamed of their kids, who hate their kids, and wish they’d gotten “normal” kids instead. Autism is not a disease to be cured. I wish we treated autistics with the same respect we treat Down’s kids with! This billboard is hateful. The people who put it up should be ashamed. Bigotry is NEVER helpful. Thank goodness for the autism advocates who look out for people like me. Comment by Anon - December 14, 2007 at 8:36 pm These ads are so offensive. NYU has used scare tactics and stigma mongering to prey on parents in order to increase business at their center. It offers hopelessness to parents and patients and is completely insulting. Comment by Jane - December 14, 2007 at 8:57 pm I am not a disease. Comment by Jennifer Mazer - December 14, 2007 at 9:15 pm These ads are offensive, not only for the many wonderful reasons cited, but because they do not give hope. They ignore the fact the child with the disorder is very capable of reading them, and how they might feel about these statements. They are offensive to those parents who work hard to make sure their children are not seen as the ‘other’. My response is located at http://blog.kkorner.net/2007/12/dear-bipolar-disorder.html Comment by Krista - December 14, 2007 at 9:15 pm This institution should be boycotted. People are working for awareness, and a campaign like this only fosters hysterical reactions and not effective treatment. The people who should be targeted are our government officials and school boards who do their damn best to make sure they don’t have to pay any more than they have to. It’s time to hold these entities accountable to their constituents–us–and demand they do the job we elected them to do. From a dx older Autistic Comment by Rjaye - December 14, 2007 at 10:48 pm Ari Ne’eman, the Aspergers Autistic who runs ASAN, has saved my life numerous times since high school. Hardly the action of a kidnapped mind. Comment by Stephanie Bramson - December 14, 2007 at 11:10 pm These ads have shock value, but provide no hope or reassurance to parents. They are negative, cruel and stigmatize instead of support the people they claim they want to help. I don’t see any value in that. Comment by Elke - December 14, 2007 at 11:11 pm This kind of fear mongering to promote the use of psychiatric services is offensive in the extreme. One can imagine the outrage if a similar ad was run for a political campaign or some commercial product, like an automobile. I have documented many similar outrages at http://psychwatch.blogspot.com Comment by Sick Mind Fraud - December 15, 2007 at 12:29 am Perpetuating negative stereotypes and misinformation about persons with disabilities is unprofessional. It is shocking that NYU would refuse to respond appropriately to the voices of those who they claim to help. I for one, wouldn’t let my son get anywhere near the group that put this ad campaign in place and certainly wouldn’t seek advice or therapy from people who have such little regard for the gifts of people with disabilities. I was one of the people who represents “increased traffic to the NYU study center website” but that doesn’t imply anything positive about the ad campaign. Comment by Physician and Parent - December 15, 2007 at 11:25 am This ad campaign does nothing to help my son be in the world. I wouldn’t seek help from the NYU study center or any group that treated its patients with stigmatization. We want people to love & understand our kids not subject them to public rejection. What was BBDO thinking? Shock & Awe sure didn’t work for the Neocons & it ain’t going to work for NYU All attention isn’t bad, but this is harmful and should be taken down. My kid doesn’t belong on a milk box. Comment by Parental notification - December 15, 2007 at 11:54 am These self advocacy groups are certainly not experts in communication. Their ‘outrage’ has generated enormous publicity for NYU’s ad campaign. I’d suggest that the self advocates spend less time being outraged and direct their efforts to understanding the disorders and finding effective treatment. The idea that autism is a good thing is ridiculous. Some self advocates not only don’t want treatment, they don’t want it to be available for anyone else. Perhaps that mindset is a symptom of autism. I’ve heard the question posed by a self advocate, “If you could take a pill to cure your Aspergers, would you take it?” The question is intended to demonstrate that many with Aspergers are completely satisfied and do not want to be cured. I’ll pose a question to everyone else. If you could take a pill to acquire Aspergers Syndrome, would you take it? Of course not. The argument is silly. Aspergers Syndrome and autism need to be understood so that effective treatments and preventions can be devised. NYU and Autism Speaks are working hard to do just that. The self advocacy groups are working hard to undermine other’s good work. Comment by Good For You NYU - December 15, 2007 at 12:18 pm Like most things, the answer to the question of whether Aspberger’s/autistics/ADHD kids need the kind of intervention being advocated by Koplewicz and his ilk is a matter of one’s perspective. If one’s career, status and income is dependent upon finding people who have something wrong with them, irrespective of whether they believe that to be the case, or not, then chances are one will find that something is wrong. I don’t think drugs are capable of enabling anybody interact better with the world (better than what, incidentally?), not least because the nature of the various “conditions” is not understood. Given that drugs appear to be Koplewicz’s treatment of choice, I’m skeptical as to his abilities, frankly. I’m similarly skeptical as to the abilities and motives of those who paid for the campaign. Matt Comment by Matthew Holford - December 15, 2007 at 1:13 pm Although the ad campaign does seem like it’s trying to drive business to the center, if you go to their website you’ll see that it offers a wealth of useful information for parents and teachers of children with various disorders. I think their main intention is to try to help families and educate the public — and to reach people who might be in denial that there is a problem. I think it’s important to recognize that there are a lot of children who are not being treated. If you go to their website www.aboutourkids.org, you’ll find that the center offers a lot of different treatments, not just medication, and if you do your research, you’ll find that the center is not funded by pharmaceutical companies, but actually by the state of new york and private donors. As an aunt of a child with Asperger Syndrome, I understand why parents of affected children would be disturbed by these ads, but I don’t think they are mal-intentioned, and I think if you consider the alternative — children not getting the help they need and the world continuing to stigmatize them — you will find that bringing light to these issues — even in such a harsh way — is very necessary. Comment by anon - December 15, 2007 at 7:04 pm Dear NYU Child Study Center: I have been trying to tell my ADHD child for years that he is “possessed” and “a detriment to himself and those around him,” but he has refused to believe me. At long last, I can now point to a giant billboard and prove to him that it is true! Thank you! My 45-year-old autistic brother (and 55-year-old autistic cousin), who was nonverbal in childhood and believed to be facing a bleak future of total isolation (just like NYU’s ads say! cool! thanks for perpetuating that!!), thinks he has a happy life, what with his wife and his music and church and the bowling league, but I always knew it was a lie. I can now point out to him that, in fact, he has been made “unable to care for himself or interact socially as long as he lives.” Thank you! This will be a big help to him. My Aspie son, I now know, despite his smiles and giggles and drive to go out and do stuff every day at playgrounds, libraries, and church, has been “destroyed” and will be “driven into a life of complete isolation” unless … unless what? Doesn’t say. Well, good to know anyhow. Thank you! In your efforts to make an “edgy” campaign that you “knew” “would be harsh and upsetting,” you have obviously taken some effective pointers from the likes of the various supremacist groups. Good going! The idea is to provoke — at all costs! — not inform. Just provoke — doesn’t matter to what end. Generate that conversation, even if you have to shame, ridicule, stigmatize, and lie to do it. Well done! You said, “I thought we’d be fighting ignorance. I didn’t think we’d be fighting adult patients or the parents of patients whose feelings have been hurt.” (”Adult patients”? Adult autistics are not automatically “patients,” unless of course they also have an illness. But, whatever, technicalities). Well, keep up the good fight! Fight those autistics! Fight those “patients”! Fight those parents whose poor fragile children cannot stand to hear the truth — that they are “a detriment to themselves and those around them” and doomed to a life of social isolation, etc.! Fight them all! And meanwhile, by perpetuating the stigma and fueling the fear, you will ensure that parents and “patients” either sink into denial and shame and avoid any sort of diagnosis or help, or else panic and pursue any and all sorts of desperate and potentially harmful “treatments” to exorcise their children from the demons who have “possessed” them. Thank you for making sure that parents, teachers, etc. separate the “real” child from the “autistic” (ADHD, etc.) “kidnapper” part, so that when the child protests a certain treatment, the parent/teacher can say, “Oh, that’s just the autism (ADHD, whatever) demon talking,” and continue to ignore the child’s protests. Kid doesn’t know what’s good for ‘em, obviously. If they’re even still IN there, somewhere. You missed a few, though. Here, pro bono, are some more ideas: YOUR CHILD IS A FAT, LAZY SLOB WHO DOESN’T KNOW AN APPLE FROM A DONUT. YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED. –OBESITY WLIEURL XOIUEOWR WOEU FWR QPIOWE WK AQOU BIEAEOI WEI XVB, AND SHE’S STUDIP, TOO. –DYSLEXIA So … way to go! Keep up the good work! Keep fighting those autistic, bulimic, depressed, ADHD people you didn’t even bother to consult! Because it’s not about THEM anyway, is it? Comment by Anonymous - December 15, 2007 at 8:21 pm Hello, As one of the individuals targeted by this advertising campaign (I am under 18 and diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, ADD (without hyperactivity) and OCD, among other things), I must say that this campaign is offensive and ineffective. While I am not anti-support for children with these conditions (having received some myself and seeing the benefits of it first hand), using shock-ad campaigns that claim these children are ‘kidnapped’ and ‘held for ransom’ as well as ‘doomed to a terrible, horrific life’ sends a very bad message, e.g. one that creates massive stigma and reluctance to diagnose and seek help (if needed), which clearly runs against NYU’s campaign to ‘increase awareness, decrease stigma, and find help for these children.’ Plus, the advertisements are highly offensive to me and many, many other Autistics (particularly higher-functioning Autistics, but also some with lower-functioning autism), parents/family/friends of people with these conditions, and other mental health professionals (as the high number of mental health professionals signing the petition against the campaign attests to). You cannot deny the fact that there are children and adults with autism out there who really do need intensive help and care, but you also cannot deny the fact that there are just as many (if not more) people with Autism, Asperger’s Syndrome, ADHD etc., who could benefit the most simply and solely through an inclusive atmosphere, which this ad campaign fervently works against. Will M. Comment by An Autistic 14-year-old - December 15, 2007 at 8:38 pm I hope that all the celebrities, including Hilary Clinton, who support this man’s child study center, IMMEDIATELY disassociate themselves from the center, from any donations, and from this message of hate. I detect the hand of Pharma behind it, and hope some more investigation will tease this out. SOON. This egotistical man - it seems to always be egotistical MEN trading on children with disabilities - will be shamed into leaving his post. And I hope that the people who put together this pro bono ad campaign will lose business right and left. Let them be shunned. I wonder why a few disabilities were LEFT OFF THE LIST? Is the fake “bipolar child” business too controversial? Don’t they have people available at the child study center to work with deaf or blind children? Or is the batch of children chosen especially because they can be given DRUGS? Having lost a child to Zyprexa, I find this a most sickening story. May it go away NOW. Comment by I Smell a RAT - December 16, 2007 at 6:05 pm When it comes to disability awareness, all is fair. I recently saw an awareness / care group’s “Media Guide” that wholeheartedly abuses language - don’t call somebody a “drain” - call them “productive”! Goes two ways, apparently. Even those who are trying to help are persecutors - anybody else see some relation to the “deaf culture” that can shame or otherwise look down on those who choose to minimize their disability through implants. The culture of victimization > True awareness altruism. Comment by Vernon Walter - December 17, 2007 at 9:48 am My 21-year-old son was labeled with an autism spectrum disorder by the school system. They said he had PDD (Pervasive Developmental Delay). This is a “wastebasket diagnosis” for low-functioning kids who don’t fit into any other category. My son has structural malformations of his brain, neurological conditions that he was born with - partial agenesis of the corpus callosum and hypoplasia of the cerebellar vermis. In fact, as the ad suggests, he will most likely never be able to care for himself. However, even though he is nonverbal, he has a rich and rewarding social life. Caregivers and peers routinely comment on how much they enjoy working with him. He enjoys life and he has no desire to be anyone else or to be “cured.” I understand the attention-getting intentions of the ads, but I think there are other effective ways to get more attention for childhood mental and neurological conditions. I’m not even sure I’d call all of them disorders any more. Comment by Matthew's Mama - December 17, 2007 at 10:36 am Something must be done to give our society a ‘wake-up call’concerning the prevalence and lack of services for children and adolescents suffering from mental health problems. I applaud The Child Study Center and Dr. Harold Koplewicz for their efforts to bring this problem and it’s urgentcy to the public’s consciousness. I am convinced that the intention is not to stigmatize but to stimulate interest and action. Comment by Gabrielle Shapiro M.D. - December 17, 2007 at 11:59 am To me, these ads suggest that this is the future for someone who doesn’t get help. I know, it doesn’t actually state that; nevertheless, that’s how I interpreted the information on first reading it. I don’t think anyone who has responded here would argue that they or their family members with autism, etc. would be just dandy without any kind of treatment or intervention along the way. The kids ARE being held hostage…until someone rescues them. Comment by Random person - December 17, 2007 at 12:27 pm Dr Shapiro, “I am convinced that the intention is not to stigmatize but to stimulate interest and action.” That may or may not have been the intention: perhaps we should take Harold K at his word, on that point. Nevertheless, with respect, it is not his perception that one should be concerned with - it is the perception of those who are offended by this representation of their own experience, and the perception of the general population, who are deemed not to be suffering from mental illness, for some reason. Wake up calls are all very well, but tend to leave one feeling groggy. I think “We have your son - he thinks faster than you, you know,” would probably have been more to the point. Matthew Holford Comment by Matthew Holford - December 17, 2007 at 7:31 pm Good For You NYU argues that nobody would take a pill to have Asperger’s, and therefore this may be taken as proof that people with Asperger’s are deluded when they think they are not in need of (drugged) ‘fixing’. Please note however that I have never met a white person who would take a pill to become black - and yet I point-blank do not believe those scientists who have claimed to have proven (scientifically even) that white people are superior to black people. Surely someone is not fully human, but it ain’t the racial minority that is the problem here. The real purpose of these campaigns is to promote the idea that every parent must aggressively make their child “normal”, matching the ideal set before us of what a citizen must be, or die trying. No taking care of sick people in our culture: if your child is not like the other kids, he’s no good - and there’s nowhere for him to go. Real “help”, by this viewpoint, can mean only eradication - a cure or death, who cares which, as long as we don’t have these nasty little DIFFERENT people running around! Ironically, there are many famous, productive people with autistic traits. And yet we know they cannot possibly have been autistic - because they were productive, because they were happily married, because we know that autistic people are worthless and never do anything beneficial for society, so these guys could not possibly have been! Comment by anon - December 18, 2007 at 7:55 am
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